This is a conversation between my good friend Suman Kalyan and me about things such as Dharma, Satyagraha, Gandhi and now Baba Ramdev. I have posted it here because I thought this conversation could have an appeal to a greater number of people and also because I firmly believe that my blog should carry comments made on it by others so as to maintain a dialogical process of conversation which will help me and all others concerned at better perspectives about things.
Read some of your blog articles. Its still not clear to me what do u stand for ? Whatever may be Anna's motives, could he have done better, why did he pick politicians like Modi and Nitish ..c'Mon give him a break..he may not b perfect..did touch a chord somewhere in common folks !
April 23Suman Kalyan
Another thought about Modi. Why is everyone so eager to deliver justice in this regard but not show the same enthusiasm doing justice to those unfortunate Sikhs in the riots post madame gandhis's assassination? I can easily understand media blowing up Anna's comment on Modi but why you ?
April 23A. V. Satish Chandra
Suman,
I do not condone what happened with HKL Bhagat and co in the 1984 riots post the assassination of Indira Gandhi. I do not think Anna Hazare even intended to touch any chord in anyone. His target was clear. He wanted to work within the existing framework using the same politicians for reform. That is his choice. My commentary is about the futility of the exercise if one chose to work with the same bunch of crooks. The Narendra Modi comment is not my desire to blow things up like the media does. I am only questioning the media itself when it says Hazare is a Gandhian. A Gandhian is not one who just takes up a fast. He has to live by certain principles that have been repeatedly violated in this country by all politicians. I am not saying that anyone has to be Gandhian at all. But if the tag is attached then it needs to be justified.I was only saying in his scheme of things there was no necessity for him to give certificates of conduct to anyone. I would question him if he did the same with any politician in the country. The common folks you are referring to are the ones that help corruption grow and please remember that these things are not done under compulsion but simply out of choice.
April 24Suman Kalyan
A couple of comments:
I agree with you on the futility of Anna's efforts. However for a different reason - corruption is very closely linked to the cost of fighting elections and the current system will always create crooks out of any new individuals in the system however well meaning they may be..Some will be less greedy than the others and not accumulate personal wealth, whilst the majority will fill their pockets and and also generate funds for political party sustenance. The stakes are too high and moral compass will change ! I do not believe the answers lie in getting honest individuals into political governance. The changes need to be more fundamental..
April 24Suman Kalyan
I'm not sure what really a Gandhian means...What principles are we talking about besides fasts ? Frankly in my opinion fasts are really rubbish. Traditional wisdom has always recommended periodic fasts as a means of improving one's health, but any other reason is "blackmail"
April 24Suman Kalyan
The politicians in this country have violated many principles - but Gandhianism is the last one i would worry about..It's about time that we as a nation laid the ideals of Gandhianism to eternal rest..Most of it never made sense to me..Gandhi was a great social reformer whose contribution to Hindu society to tackle social causes was definitely outstanding and everyone should follow his example in this regard.. His political ideology and political actions are eminently forgettable. Principles like non violence are dangerous ! forgive the oxymoron ! It goes against our fundamental ethos. Dharma is not only to protect the righteous, weak but also to vanquish evil. In other words an act of violence or non violence by itself cannot be judged without the context of a Dharma..So applying a principle of non violence indiscriminately for all situations is rank foolishness and unfortunately Gandhi is a best example for this. Not to take away any of his stellar contributions to the nation for fighting social evils like untouchability. The point I'm trying to make is, it is time to bury Gandhianism.
April 24A. V. Satish Chandra
Suman,
It will take up a lot of time and space if I were to start talking about Gandhian principles that go way beyond fasting. In fact, in the Gandhian scheme of things even fasting has some philosophical insights and therefore it is not just blackmail. I will not extend the commentary simply because as I said in the previous reply of mine, there is no necessity to be Gandhian to fight anything including corruption. There are other equally ethical ways of doing things and should be explored. You are right about Dharma and applying non-violence to all situations. Burying Gandhianism is a choice that people who fight for various things should make. By that I do not mean people like KCR.
April 24Suman Kalyan
Satish, if you have time to write a separate note on some of the philosophical aspects of fasting, request you to do so..I'm interested in knowing about these..I have had so much of disdain for things like fasting being the glutton I'm 
would love to know a bit more about it..
would love to know a bit more about it..I would like to add a comment in the concept of fighting evils like corruption, I think the best example that should be imbibed in our country is the example of Chanakya which in my opinion is more relevant than Gandhianism.. To fight evils and uphold Dharma, any means is fair game..So some of the means employed may not thrill your ethical senses..prostitutes, poisons, elaborate system of spies, etc anything that upholds Dharma...
April 24Suman Kalyan
In fact some of these means should not even give rise to ethical dilemmas - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad is very clear in stating that Truthful action is one that establishes Dharma and goes ahead to state that Dharma and Truth are synonymous with each other..
To me this has a staggering implication - Truth does not imply a record of facts and truthful action does not necessary imply trying to be a saint !
April 24Suman Kalyan
Three people in Indian History understood this very well - Krishna, Chanakya and Samarth Ramdas and their contributions speak for themselves..
and of course everyone of had an impact at a civilizational level !
I do not see how true change will be ushered in our country without someone providing leadership of the stature of Chanakya !
45 minutes agoSuman Kalyan
I think making comments on Ramdev's physical afflictions with the eye is in poor taste..
Ramdev made his intent to enter the political arena very clear when he announced his political party. If street thugs, hooligans, convicted criminals can enter the politics why not Yoga gurus !
I agree with your observations on Satya Sai Baba..Another individual who should be added to the list of tricksters is Gandhi himself who caused more harm that Sai Baba to the country with his bizarre religious tolerance where it was okay for one community to get killed peacefully without retaliating but the parity ended there...I don;t need to get into the details, but history bears this out...Sai Baba made lot of money tricked lot of people, but never made a civilization impotent..
Your comments on "Spiritualism" are without any basis and reflects an immature understanding. Spiritual empowerment goes hand in hand with political and economic empowerment of society. The essence of all Vedas, Upanishads from the perspective of spirituality is all about transcending "I" and ways and means to achieve that. claims about Spirituality - everything falling into place when things are cleansed at the spirit level is incorrect.
You seem to have a problem with spirituality and politics. I see an intimate connection between the two. Two great examples - Krishna and Chanakya. They gave a very correct and holistic meaning to spirituality and hence their impact on society at a civilizational level.
Ramdev may not be the best example of a warrior saint in the league of Swami Vivekananda, but I see nothing wrong with his strategy. You can fault the methods he uses, question his personal motives, but I see spiritualization of a society with political and economic empowerment as a great strategy.
The comparison to Madrasas again doesn't make sense. The things that you casually mention as "people are told to do things for the society" has created a worldwide Islamic terrorism problem. I don;t want to get into a debate on why should terrorism be labeled as Islamic - the same standard debate points terrorism has no religion, this is actually a religion of peace but there are some misguided individuals who are giving the religion a bad name etc etc...
Hazare is in idiot who thought he could pull a rabbit out of a hand and corruption would magically go away. The political class is too smart for him and as expected they out maneuvered him. I didn't keep awake on any night with a remote hope that Hazare would succeed....RSS, BJP, Bajrang Dal may have their own problems as with any organization, but not supporting Hazare was a smart move in not wasting political capital on a losing proposition. Hazare at least is a harmless guy, but can;t the same for Gandhi who was dangerous...So I think the comparison with Gandhi is actually a disrespect for Hazare and the best thing is he actually wears a Gandhian cap ! This is ridiculous..
Once again your comparison of Satya Sai Bab and rammed is again inexplicable. Ramdev for all this flaws, played a significant role in resurgence Yoga in India - a land that was slowly losing the Yoga tradition. I 'm a Yoga practitioner for a long time and he definitely wasn't teaching BS. I do have a problem with him charging a huge sum of money (10,000 - 50,000 Rs), but I do not question his capabilities in Yoga. Sai Baba was a poor magician at best and duped lot of people..Of course he was a master of financial management and psychology for sure..I don;t see the basis for this comparison..
I do agree with you that some of his suggestions like capital punishment may not be sound...
As far as a monster that will consume us all, Gandhi created the monster called Congress 50 years back... I'm not sure if he created it, but he certainly nurtured it for sure according to his whims and fancies. Congress ruined our country over the last 50 years and you think Ramdev has enough talent to create more damage than this !
What the country needs is another Chanakya. Some one who has the right vision for the Rashtra, fierce sense of nationalism as his core philosophy, astute political skills, unite everyone through a common thread of spiritualistic ideals, do what it takes to eliminate evil elements in society..Is there such an individual or will someone step up ? If there is none, I don;t need to be a soothsayer to predict the demise of this nation in the next 50 years...
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What I have posted are comments made on what I have written yesterday and some a few weeks ago. As you may have gleaned these are by Suman Kalyan a good friend of mine with whom I share a love for the same kind of music but apparently not for same kind of politics:-). In the in interest of equity and fairness I have put all his comments here from Facebook and it is up to you now to decide on things. I will respond to a couple of things about his comments on my post of yesterday and also I had promised to write about the philosophical underpinnings of Gandhi's Satyagraha sometime ago and did not due to preoccupations with all things useless; and so I will write that bit out too. What can be a personal debate, I have made public so that I can perhaps benefit from perspectives that I may be wrong about or failing to see. It will be nice if more people can contribute to this.
First let me agree with Suman that my remarks about Ramdev's physical affliction (his eye) are in poor taste. Now let us get down to a few disagreements.
1. The Congress is not the creation of MK Gandhi. Gandhi also did not want the party to continue post independence by anticipating precisely the things that Suman has pointed out about the Congress party and the damage that it has done and continues to do to this nation.
2. The Satya Sai Baba and the Ramdev comparison is explicable. Both have organized their popularity among the masses through the overt and covert support of finances of the rich and also of the politicians. Though it is said that they also helped in storing the corrupt money of businesses and politics, I will not comment on that because there is no concrete evidence to support the same. Satya Sai Baba was a facilitator of political deals and Ramdev could end up the same if he does not end up becoming a full time politician. Also I have pointed out the differences between the two of them and why I was writing about them in that piece in the first place.
3. I do not see a place for Chanakya in the present scheme of things. The reasons are straightforward, it is like saying Niccolo Machiavelli can solve the problems of present day Italy. Chanakya is about as spiritual as Osama Bin Laden and to complicate it all, despite the popular perception of who Chanakya was, historically there is very little to connect three names-Chanakya, Kautilya and Vishnu Gupta; all of whom are presumed to be one person but in reality may not be. The relevance of the Arthashastra is purely confined to its times, present day politics being far more different, complicated and bigger for the Arthashastra to be of any consequence. If you are referring to the fact that he created a "pragmatic" system of governance, even that will be beset by the same problems that I have referred to in the previous sentence. Cunning and astute political strategies are already leading the nation to its demise. You give it 50 years, I give it 10 if things continue like this.
4. Ramdev may be a Yoga practitioner of great repute but that does not entitle him to get into politics. You are right when you say that there are goons and thugs in politics already so why can't Ramdev get in. I am bemoaning the fact that politics in India is becoming an exclusive prerogative of the unenlightened; be they goons, thugs, yoga gurus, pahelwans or communally minded people. Often this has left me with a feeling of disgust for democracy but then I prefer the evils of democracy to what may be if it is other forms of government. So while I criticize Ramdev and his ilk I prefer them in a democratic system than having someone lording over everyone in a dictatorship.
5. My understanding of spiritualism you aver is immature and ill thought out. I seek to disagree. The whole idea of spiritualism is the apprehension and cognition of picture larger than the one that is perceived of by the senses. The spiritualist can make Cosmic connections and arrive at what is good and what is bad and what is morally sustainable and what is not. What you have done is to delink the connection between spiritualism based in moral understanding from politics. Politics are what they are today precisely due to their disconnect with all things spiritual. Be it Ramdev or Swami Agnivesh or the RSS; they have all failed here. In fact the brand of Hinduthva that is being pedalled today by the RSS, the Sangh Parivar for me is the Islamization and Christianization of a cosmology that was far superior than the proselytizing religions that I have mentioned. The intervention of the Arya Samaj actually transformed what was a brilliant cosmology into just another proselytizing religion. I also say that by the time the Arya Samaj had intervened there were several other interventions that sublated the cosmology and turned it into a monstrous social schema. I am referring to the intervention of Brahminical religion and its unwarranted intrusion into the Ancient Indian wisdom and cosmology reducing in the process the whole thing to dos and don'ts based in the utterly ridiculous. I stand by my idea that what we have as spiritualism is nothing but a made easy text of dos and don'ts and therefore I will say that any comparisons between the notions of dharma as practiced in the Mahabharatha and what we have today will only strengthen efforts at genocide and launching of pogroms against specific sections of populations.
6. About the philosophical basis of Satyagraha and the answer to the question of what more is it than fasting as a tactic of blackmail. The fasts taken up by anyone and everyone today and the birth of the system of relay fasts has detracted from the philosophical underpinnings of Satyagraha and fasting. A good beginning to a better understanding of what Satyagraha is the dissection of the term itself. Satyagraha is righteous anger or the anger born out of a moral conviction that what the other is doing to you is wrong and unsustainable by any system of morality. A Satyagrahi should first be convinced of the Truth of what he believes after due logical cogitation along the lines of morality and only then should take up an action on behalf of that truth which is universal. So when Mahatma Gandhi undertook a fast it was not to blackmail people. It was to impress upon them the idea that his was so convinced of the Truth of his thought and actions that for the perpetuation of that Truth he was willing to even give up his life. Gandhi was actually challenging the theory of Yuga Dharma, one that changed with every passing Yuga and went into the decline mode. Gandhi believed not in Yuga Dharma but in Sanatana Dharma, a Dharma which will not succumb to a degenerative cycle but remain constant even in the face of great adversity. Gandhi distinguished between Sanatana Dharma and religion. For him all religions are governed by the same Dharma and the tragedy was that people who had forgotten the basic morals of their religion (any religion) had strayed from the path of Sanatana Dharma. For him war, conquest and colonialism were a result of people's alienation from their religion and by extension from Sanatana Dharma.
7. I feel sad that Gandhi is so vociferously disowned in his own country, by the very people he fought for. It was his appeal for religious tolerance and fighting for it through fasts that led to whatever harmony we have in this country. For me the belligerence of the Hinduthva forces will destroy the country not build it. It is indeed a great pity that today the Godses of the country are becoming heroes and the Gandhis (the Mahatma type and not Indira, Sonia, Rajiv, Sanjay, Rahul and Priyanka types) are becoming villains.
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